Misspeaches,
I think swalker and the others are right on the mark, BUT, curlygirl has a great point too.
I would follow swalker's advice and try to defuse the situation. If you don't, the tactics curly mentioned might be set in motion.
I have been in a situation recently you wouldn't believe. I can't get into any detail here - a close friend of mine could get hurt here as well.
Over dinner with a glass of wine, I made the suggestion to somebody to read a well-known American eastern philosophy self-help book. "This person" commented on how the GB didn't allow such meditation stuff. I was stupid enough to make some off-the-cuff remarks on the relative position of the GB. I literally got 30-min pledge of allegiance to the GB. The next day this person contacted several people about me and proceeded to report me to his/her PO... Now, I could really get this person disfellowshipped (if I wanted to) in no time for something - concrete proof and all - I obviously cannot be specific about. I am powerless because my defense would take a close friend down in the process.
I agree with inquiryman's comment that any hint of treason might present them with the opportunity to balance their behavior with assuming the role of a righteous King or priest cleaning out the idol worshippers from the temple - apart from covering their own tracks of course.
Theo
Van Gogh
JoinedPosts by Van Gogh
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Shunned by a JW leading a double life
by misspeaches ini seriously do not understand how some people reason.
if they do reason at all.. my boyfriend has been friends with a couple of guys since highschool.
it turns out that both these guys are jw's.
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Van Gogh
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Is this a valid point about Bible prophecies?
by apple78 inok, forgive me if this sounds silly but it came to me today.
people keep talking about the earth and its disasters and the fulfilling of prophecies and end times.
but is there a counter argument to these prophecies?
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Van Gogh
Thanx stillawitness. I like you too.
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Is this a valid point about Bible prophecies?
by apple78 inok, forgive me if this sounds silly but it came to me today.
people keep talking about the earth and its disasters and the fulfilling of prophecies and end times.
but is there a counter argument to these prophecies?
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Van Gogh
IMO, we as human beings are all impressionable by our very nature. We all probably live in some sort of matrix, but that should IMO be even more of an incentive to, at least, try to be aware of this, and to learn the art of critical thought. Because of their personal JW experiences, people on this forum IMHO are making a daily effort to refine this art, each in his/her own way.
You might want to have a look at the Amazon info on: "Sign of the Last Days When," by Carl O. Jonsson.
Although already about twenty years old (considering the subject matter, its age might actually be an endorsement), it is written from the perspective of a former Jehovah's Witness and their teachings. They are already world champion in failing eschatology anyway, but he does manage to further defuse their particular brand of scare mongering. Understanding failing JW eschatology would serve to illustrate your problem. Interestingly, critical thinking was always discouraged by The Watchtower-JW.
Theo
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Aliens/UFO's...Do You Believe In Them?
by Legolas in.
after reading another thread it got me thinking...how many here believe in aliens?
have you ever seen a ufo?
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Van Gogh
This is an Amazon customer-review of “Alien Encounters”, by Chuck Missler and Mark Eastman: Chuck and Mark hit a bullseye!, March 14, 2004:
“I admit, the implications in this book are too much to handle, and at first glance, it can seem like ridiculous speculation. BUT, I am very familiar with other teachings of Chuck Missler from the website www.khouse.org, and know for certain that he is entirely Biblical, born-again, and sincere. It is evident that God has chosen NOT to tell us a lot about angels and demons, but he has given us some very interesting pieces of info throughout the Bible, and Chuck and Mark have beautifully dovetailed these scriptures with other weird stuff from our present culture---and guess what---it all fits together into an end-times scenario that really makes sense! This book might be the vaccine that will alert and save thousands of skeptics when the end-times finally arrive. Someone once said, "a god small enough to fit inside your head is not big enough to meet your need" (or something like that). The message of this book is like this--a bit too much for my head, but I'm content with that. The conclusions are incredible, weird, and true (IMHO)---but so is the incarnation, the trinity, the atonement, the rapture, the resurrection, heaven and hell, etc. etc. I know it sounds like a Hollywood mix of Star Wars, The Matrix, and Men in Black, but hey, God is far more creative than that....
Get this book--you will want your skeptical friends to have a copy too.Watch the tower,
Exjdubs sincerely believed a great story that had all the answers, dovetailing all the bible texts together. It predicted with great certainty and in great detail what was going to happen in the near future - an end-times scenario that really seemed to make sense! It explained exactly what to do in order to live beyond that near future. Actually there were several stories, each consisting of several future scenarios. And the jdubs believed them all – until they stopped believing them. Suddenly they were left empty handed. So you could be preaching to some fertile territory. The only problem is that many may have become somewhat too cynical by now.
Interestingly, when checking out some of the material published by the proponents of the demon/alien eschatology on amazon.com, I noticed that some of them substantiate their teaching with pyramid measurements….in modern-day inches… Now, where have I heard that before..?
Theo
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You cannot live forever in paradise on earth
by Gopher inthe watchtower society has, for about seven decades, been attracting new volunteer workers for its field ministry with the promise of life forever on a paradise earth.
even the titles of its main study books since 1968 bear the promise: the truth that leads to eternal life, you can live forever in paradise on earth, and knowledge that leads to everlasting life.
how logical is this hope that leads people to entrust the watchtower with their time, energy and worldly possessions?
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Van Gogh
If you hold the bible to be true and want to start doubting again, then look at this exegesis from the Unitarian Church:
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=113 )
The Unitarian Church does not accept the Trinity doctrine and they not believe in any heavenly hope.
Introduction to their basics:
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=302
Scriftural explanation:
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=299
Sweet dreams (who knows?)
Theo -
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Seriously though, how CAN the WTBTS Book Publishing Corp...
by sf in...stop the information that the marvelous tool the internet provides all who seek its inner workings?.
what will they actually be able to do about the momentum of facts, backed by documents and other evidence, that seem to be gaining at a faster pace these days?.
would they, could they actually hear a miraculous voice that of jehovah telling them that the internet is a tool of satan and then produce a scripture the flock would see as divine guidance through the gb, thus through a new article {new light} that they must give it up completely?.
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Van Gogh
Amen Genesis and welcome,
"Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings :} hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies..."
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Two classes of Christians after all?
by Narkissos infirst, as i am just back online, happy new year to everyone!
totally unrelated to the above (or maybe not), it just occurred to me that the unscriptural wt doctrine of "two classes of christians" might have some faint pars veritatis after all as far as the nt is concerned.. of course it is not about "anointed or not," "two hopes," "heaven vs. earth".. yet several segments of early christianity did seem to allow for a huge difference in levels of requirement, vocation, or fate among believers.
on the one hand, the high and hard way of the apostles, disciples, missionaries, evangelists, martyrs; on the other hand, the minimal requirement of the rest.
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Van Gogh
Thanks Narkissos.
I must, of course, admit that my perspective on your question and Christianity is still very much subjective and is still colored by traditional idealism to say the least. Of course I know way too little about the bare irrational facts that hence need to be "rearranged" by a kind of spiritually induced common sense and intuitive reasoning.
I have learnt a lot yet again tonight, particularly also from the comments made by Terry. I never imagined that finding out that the core of the WTS is based on pseudo-logic, falsehoods, and distortions, if not outright lies and deception, would also by definition, to a large extent, invalidate most of what can be accepted as fact in the Scriptures. If you apply true common sense and logic to the WTS and JWism, it logically follows that these must also be applied to the Bible and even God himself.
This ongoing realization is what has come as a great surprise to me as I always understood that becoming, for example, an atheist, after leaving the WTS, was proof that trust had been placed in men rather than God from the start, and that one simply had never truly believed in the Bible God from the start. As it is, it turns out that it is exactly that, what I have been doing al along. A shocking look in the mirror!
I am, of course, obligated to educate myself on this subject. Although previously revered "truths" are evaporating for me rapidly now, I would like to express that I find the increase in unanswerable questions to be somewhat of a relief from a rigid belief system that never allowed any. I like it.A pact with the Devil..?
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Seriously though, how CAN the WTBTS Book Publishing Corp...
by sf in...stop the information that the marvelous tool the internet provides all who seek its inner workings?.
what will they actually be able to do about the momentum of facts, backed by documents and other evidence, that seem to be gaining at a faster pace these days?.
would they, could they actually hear a miraculous voice that of jehovah telling them that the internet is a tool of satan and then produce a scripture the flock would see as divine guidance through the gb, thus through a new article {new light} that they must give it up completely?.
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Van Gogh
Paradoxically, the internet seems to play a somewhat opposite role for the young Islamic fundamentalist generation.
A couple of months ago the famous French Islam scholar Gilles Kepel stated as follows in a Dutch national newspaper (I translate):
"The Jihad is in full swing and Europe is the frontline. A ruthless power struggle is going on in order to get the best access to the western Muslims. These do not include the imams or traditional religious legal scholars, the ulama. Gradually the internet is replacing human authority. It provides the illusion of science and truth. Salafists view the holy texts on the internet - drafted in Saudi Arabia, to be translated into French, Dutch, and English - as a direct link to the Prophet and his disciples. The internet obscures the boundaries of time and space. In this way, they return to the golden age of the prophet. Jihadists are under the impression that they have direct access to the true Islam. Without human intervention, the truth is provided by the internet. No human authors are involved. Nobody is responsible".
These statements reminded me of the anonymous, unsigned correspondence and the books from the society that never have an individual author mentioned in them - hence, nobody can be blamed. Adding to this is the assertion that this faceless (publishing) organization is located partly in heaven. Just remember that it was only because of early twentieth-century state-of-the-art technology (radio stations, gramophones, slide shows, huge printing presses, computerized translation, logistics, and transportation) that JWism was able to spread that rapidly. Now, as another destructive religious movement is emerging by way of current state-of-the-art (internet) technology, the WTS is far behind, using outdated technologies. The internet will be a major influence in the spreading of information to a new generation for better or for worse. "Apostates" use the same internet as well, but perhaps they/we should start giving the bOrg a face as well.
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What did you do with your literature when you left?
by ontarget inwhat did you do with your literature when you left?
i burned my literature except for the wt cd which i sold on ebay.
i did not want to just throw the literature away as i did not want the trash man to read it and become a witness.
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Van Gogh
For me, the process started about two years ago, way before I was ready to leave.
After I re-appeared in JW-land in the early nineties, I managed to acquire a rather complete new library. I took some pride in it as well. I got most of the bound volumes, yearbooks, booklets and so on from about the early fifties onward - the whole works, nearly half a bookcase wall filled with a candy-colored WTS cornucopia of spiritual food.
When they had started looking sinister to me, I first packed the whole lot in about eight large banana boxes and parked them under my bed. About a year later, I took some deep breaths and carted the whole lot into the waste-paper recycling container around the corner. I was still a bit unsure, as there was some really old stuff from the early forties as well - things that had been treasured and revered for many years. It took me about an hour. To me it was just as much a symbolic and clandestine ACT of resistance as it was a mental clearing out, as a lot of the luxury re-bound volumes were given to me by a - by now - ex-friend elder who had turned out to be a two-faced teflon-coated mendacious politician.
Theo
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Do you feel 'Disconnected' since leaving the borg?
by AK - Jeff ini mean - many of us had a history that was exclusively in the 'truth'.
nothing else.. now having left, do you long for a discussion with some who share your past culture, understandings, and lifestyle?.
is that the 'appeal' of this board to many?
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Van Gogh
Yep, "disconnected" all the way round. But not just after leaving.
I never really felt "connected" in the troof either. Always was some sort of a sideliner and onlooker.
As a sound boy at about 12 years old in the early seventies, I remember having to turn the sound on and off depending on whether someone was actually speaking into the roving mike. As I was "mentally detached" during most of the meeting, I would frequently make an ass of myself by forgetting to turn the sound on when someone was answering up. Never moved much beyond that level. They never trusted me with anything but the mags and the mikes.
In the eighties I faded when I took a job involving international travel. I married a worldly and went to university. Of course I could never feel really "connected" to any of those things/people. For some reason - must have been the constant fear of Armageddon - I came back in "from the cold" in the early nineties. Of course, soon after, my wife decided to "disconnect" from me as well...permanently.
I actually managed to "connect" for a couple of years as I evidently was a promising prospect for most of the elders who had an obvious fascination for a university educated repenter. Still a publisher, I was starting to be groomed for the HLC and actually did some small assignments for Bethel on the blood issue for crying out loud.
It was the close friendships with those elders, however, that "disconnected" me again - onto the dead-end R&F path of WTS nowhere land: The elders hated each other bitterly and I got caught up as a pawn in the ensuing palace revolution when I sided with the one that got the axe. I had again managed to effectively "disconnect" into pariah status.
I suffer from Permanent Disconnection Syndrome of course even now, but somehow, I have started sensing a level of "connection" to some things on a level I never experienced before.
Theo